Curse

Shakkara · Aug 07, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I'm extremely angry and pissed off due to the nerf of Finale of Restoration, because this has made the whole motivation skill line completely useless.

All of the chants of the paragon are currently underpowered and nerfed to hell as is due to their extreme recharges of 20 seconds (used to be 10, before they got nerfed into the ground), which already limited the effectiveness of Finale of Restoration. Their healing over time completely sucks, but thanks to combining it with Finale of Restoration they used to be somewhat on par with other classes.

Now the support healing paragon is completely dead and the motivation line completely useless, nerfing Finale of Restoration was the final nail in the coffin.

Consider a build like this:

[Song of Restoration]
[Ballad of Restoration]
[Aria of Zeal]
[Anthem of Flame]
[Energizing Chorus] or [Watch Yourself!]
[Mending Refrain]
[Energizing Finale]
[Finale of Restoration]

With Finale of Restoration this build was a viable alternative for a monk or rit healer. All the healing skills have a 20 second recharge, but thanks to Finale of Restoration, the paragon could at least get a few heals in through Energizing Chorus, Watch Yourself or even Anthem of Flame (Skills which are only on the bar because they don't suffer from 20 sec recharges that make them totally useless).

Mending refrain already got nerfed, as do all other skills on the list. But the sole redeeming factor was Finale of Restoration. Now that it is gone too, the healing role of Paragons in PVE is completely dead. I must admit I deleted my paragon after the first round of Motivation nerfs (using everything on my bar, then doing nothing for 15 seconds until they recharge isn't my idea of fun), and that I didn't bring Hayda and General Morgan very often, but they did have their uses and I did take them out when I didn't want to play with overpowered N/Rit healer NPCs. Now they'll never see another adventure, in their current sorry state.

Not warranting a seperate PVE version? Arenanet must be out of their mind.

Ratson Itamar · Aug 07, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I agree with you completely. I lold when I read "Again, we did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions".

What's more confusing is that they're doing it right after they tried to buff paragons in PvE...If you needed a proof for Anet absolute stupidity, well you've just got it.

I'm honestly considering deleting my para, it's way too boring being an Imbagon anymore.

Eduhard · Aug 07, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Agree 100% with you, they totally kicked paragons from the game long time ago..

Gonzo_Neo · Aug 07, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Agree

Its long time ago that the Paragons users felt that Motivation in PVE is dead because continus nerfing, and need a serius update, Monks are beeter healing than us by far, and with the new buff of ritues same...... ¿ why use a Moti Paragon in PVE ? When they update Paragon two months ago i was hope of a update motivation like all paragon users want , but no, they update command. And now, this month the nerf the last used skill of motivation for PVE because the PVP ( bye bye split PVE and PVP skills ).

Racthoh · Aug 07, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Paragons were never meant to fill a healing position, merely support it. Dedicating a Paragon's bar entirely to one task is wasted potential as they are an extremely effective multi-purpose profession.

Simath · Aug 07, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

With Finale of Restoration this build was a viable alternative for a monk or rit healer.

Sorry, you're wrong. Those heals you mentioned would have been unreliable and sub par. Never could that have been a viable option for a monk. Unless you planned on wiping a third of the way into an area.

Tenebrae · Aug 07, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Sorry, you're wrong. Those heals you mentioned would have been unreliable and sub par. Never could that have been a viable option for a monk. Unless you planned on wiping a third of the way into an area.

Well not with another 3 paragons on the group. Ofc in a "balanced" group they could never be the healers but on a Phys team with 3 more paragons that skill worked hella great .... now is wasted

FoxBat · Aug 07, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Yeah, I'm only pissed because this completely killed the paragon backline teams which were fun to play every now and then. RIP Dongway.

Xenomortis · Aug 07, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Paragons were never meant to fill a healing position, merely support it. Dedicating a Paragon's bar entirely to one task is wasted potential as they are an extremely effective multi-purpose profession.

This.
The only thing now is, there's very little left in Motivation that I would bother with. There are very few adrenal shouts and the energy based ones almost all have very long recharges.

Whilst I largely ignore my para char, I find paragon heroes to be quite useful, but Command has always been better. I never checked to see how often Finale of Restoration triggered though, but I'd be surprised if it was less than 5 times.

Gennadios · Aug 08, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

The only motivation skill that spent any time on my skill bar over the past few months was energizing chorus. And that was after I bought a separate set of armor to mod as a motigon and decided to challenge myself to playing backline. Well... I ended up with a very good build that relied heavily on EC for energy management while all of the worthwhile skills came from the leadership tree or were PvE only.

Sad.

If any of the support skills are to be worth jack, they need to go the way of Can't Touch This! and (ironically) Finale of Restoration and provide their benefit more than once.

Lishy · Aug 08, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

I think motivation as a whole needs to be reworked.
They're supposed to only "support" with healing, but the skills are just not good enough to waste investment or skill slots.
What motigons need is more roles to preform. They would make great batteries if they simply buff TPIY, for one, as well as Song of Power.
Song of Power would make an amazing skill if they reworked it. But using 25 energy just for it to end whenever a skill is used is downright useless since in combat, when you need it, you're constantly using skills and it is redundant.
As it currently stands though, they're nice to have in condition heavy areas. So what they also need is more hex removal.
For skills like zealous anthem, they could probably implement a "zealous" type party-wide effect. Make it give 1-energy whenever someone hits in melee or casts a spell for a reasonable X amount of time. Perhaps make it adrenaline based so people can upkeep it for that little energy boost.
Inspirational speech could be great if it simply had a lower recharge and didn't have the downfall of losing all of your adrenaline.
Leader's Zeal is not bad per se, but it just doesn't have place on a para bar and is a really selfish skill for a paragon. Give it a total functionality change. Maybe something to increase party dmg?

ShadowbaneX · Aug 09, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

I wonder if you could merge Motivation and Tactics together would you actually get anything useful out of it, or would it just be the most useless attribute in the entire game.

Lishy · Aug 09, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX

I wonder if you could merge Motivation and Tactics together would you actually get anything useful out of it, or would it just be the most useless attribute in the entire game.

Tactics was a paragon attr prior to SY

Yeah. I miss that line. And they need to revert moti for PvE to the NF-start.

Racthoh · Aug 09, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Motivation is heal x if y, restore x energy if y, or remove x conditions if y. There is one or two exceptions, Inspirational Speech but that's just trash anyhow. Granted you could probably apply a similar blanket statement to other attributes but Motivation is simply boring and doesn't promote any sort of skillful skill use to take advantage of the conditionals.

Think about Healing Prayers line, despite all of the skills essentially functioning the same heal x if y there are many cases where that y encourages some thought. Word of Healing requires the target below 50% health, Dwayna's Kiss becoming stronger against hexes or a heavily enchanted target. Taking advantage of such conditionals lies solely in the hands of the user, not the receiver like the Motivation line. Basically every Motivation skill relies on the target simply going about their business, in some cases nothing at all, or simply allowing skills to fall off.

Skills like the finales are bad design as are most Motivation skills as they promote senseless button mashing hit-me-on-recharge tactics. There's nothing interesting there. The only burden on the Paragon lies in fitting as many allies within earshot as possible.

However I don't think it's possible to give Paragon skills conditionals where the burden is in the hands of the user. The nature of the line just doesn't allow it. The only idea that springs to mind is dealing with the hard numbers associated with each. Changing a skill like Aria of Zeal to refund a % of the energy used in the next spell makes it more interesting. Aria of Restoration could heal for an amount equal to x times the energy cost. Such changes would promote more communication as the party tries to benefit as best they can, rather than simply meeting the conditional in full for something you were already doing.

ShadowbaneX · Aug 09, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Tactics was a paragon attr prior to SY

Yeah. I miss that line. And they need to revert moti for PvE to the NF-start.

I almost wonder if the Warrior and the Paragon couldn't be combined somehow. Make one general Weapon Mastery skill that works for Swords, Axes, Spears and Hammers, then combine Tactics, Motivation and Command and then make some new Primary skill that's not as horrible broken as Strength and Leadership (broken both ways, the former being useless, the latter being increadibly powerful). Not sure what the 4th attribute would be.

Anyway, you could play a variety, you could have the tank on the front lines, or hang back in the backlines and support even as a warrior. Kinda like the Singing Barb from back in the Diablo 2 days.

Not that any of this would ever happen, at least not in Guild Wars. Perhaps in GW2 though.

BadgerzFTW · Aug 09, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX

I almost wonder if the Warrior and the Paragon couldn't be combined somehow. Make one general Weapon Mastery skill that works for Swords, Axes, Spears and Hammers, then combine Tactics, Motivation and Command and then make some new Primary skill that's not as horrible broken as Strength and Leadership (broken both ways, the former being useless, the latter being increadibly powerful). Not sure what the 4th attribute would be.

Anyway, you could play a variety, you could have the tank on the front lines, or hang back in the backlines and support even as a warrior. Kinda like the Singing Barb from back in the Diablo 2 days.

Not that any of this would ever happen, at least not in Guild Wars. Perhaps in GW2 though.

Yeah, uh, no. That's just too much trouble when they just need to buff motivation and tactics. Also, Strength isn't bad.

Reverend Dr · Aug 09, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Dongway Backline still works. Easy for squishies to slot soldier's defense, best with mostly physical teams. Mostly just having to cover up the loss of healing from finale with an extra SoR, and there is still plenty of room to play around with; most obviously including pve skills.

well RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, gwbbcode.

De Maximoff · Aug 10, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

I agree with Shakkara Anet must be out of their minds to not split this for PVE and PVP. Anet stated why the skill was changed and yet AGAIN a PVE skill is changed because of the way it is used in PVP. I am not a PVP player and I am really tired of PVE skills being dictated by PVP usage or over usage. Having used the DOA Mallyx Hero Build yesterday I can tell you the change does make a difference. I believe Anet does not truly consider how PVE is affected when they change skills like this, they are more concerned with PVP and the facts back that up.

'We did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions.' The absurdity of that statement is only matched by its stupidity.

Shasgaliel · Aug 10, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Motivation does not solely depend on this one skill. I think it is only a specific build which has been nerfed. I use motivation paragon all the time and I was unaffected by the nerf at all. I am quite surprised by some of the comments as if there was only one skill in motivation and motivation was the only attribute for paragon. I agree that the nerf was unnecessary for PVE and should be indeed reversed. But this is not the end of the world.

Shakkara · Aug 10, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Sorry, you're wrong. Those heals you mentioned would have been unreliable and sub par. Never could that have been a viable option for a monk. Unless you planned on wiping a third of the way into an area.

Funny as both of my hero Paragons were always part of my party when I got vanquisher and guardian titles for Elona and did all of the healing, with only one extra hench monk. Especially in the realm of torment and against abaddon paragons shine. I agree they're a bit situational but they COULD compete with a monk or rit.

I thought Guildwars is about creativity with builds. I understand that a lot of people stick to cookie cutter builds, and these seem to think that the imbagon build is the only valid paragon build, but it certainly wasn't the case. Well maybe now after all the motivation nerfs, it's the only thing that paragons have left.